From: | Craig Purshouse <C.J.Purshouse@leeds.ac.uk> |
To: | Robert Stevens <robert.stevens@law.ox.ac.uk> |
CC: | obligations@uwo.ca |
Date: | 07/12/2018 16:27:34 UTC |
Subject: | [Spam?] Re: ODG: Brayshaw v the Partners of Apsley Surgery and Thomas O'Brien |
Very last point by me.
Rob writes:
As a matter of positive law we resolve it by looking at the legal sources (in our jurisdiction the statutes and cases)
and conclude that there is no such (posited legal) right, because it is authoritatively determined that there is none as a matter of legal fact.
I thought our primary rights were not determined by positive law according to rights theories?
I'll then try to show what is wrong with your account by giving examples of the conclusions it leads to, and why
my principle gives better outcomes.
I thought rights theory was not concerned with outcomes?
I think this illustrates why so many people find rights theories unpersuasive. It is never clear whether one is talking about moral rights or legal rights or how one determines such rights. It is like trying to nail jelly to the wall!
Best wishes,
Craig
Dr Craig Purshouse
Lecturer in Law
1.18 The Liberty Building
University of Leeds, LS2 9JT
T: (0113) 343 5050
Craig asks
"if I said that we have a right not be caused distress and you said we do not how would we resolve such dispute"
As a matter of positive law we resolve it by looking at the legal sources (in our jurisdiction the statutes and cases) and conclude that there is no such (posited legal) right, because it is authoritatively determined that there is none as a matter of legal fact.
As a matter of what the position is as a matter of justice, or what the law ought to be, the process is more difficult. So, if you posit a normative theory (utilitarianism say), to show what is wrong with it I'll need an alternative theory. (This is the truth behind the aphorism "it takes a theory to beat a theory.") I'll then try to show what is wrong with your account by giving examples of the conclusions it leads to, and why my principle gives better outcomes. Either you'll want to abdon your theory, modify it, or you'll reject the conclusion I think you should draw from the example.
Moral philosophers play this game with boring hypotheticals, seemingly always about trollies. They then have online polls about what they think the result should be ("25% say push the fat man in front of the trolley to save the larger number of lives.") In law, we're lucky enough to have millions of real world examples, from multiple different jurisdictions separated by time, space and culture, with reflective people with good judg(e)ment having given their own answer, to draw upon. Back and forth we go, between principle and legal result, sometimes concluding that a result is wrong, sometimes deciding our original stated principle needs modification (or may indeed be entirely wrong).
That, at least for me, is the game I want to play.
Steve:
There are several things funny about Miss Elk. I'm very keen on legal facts. I just don't think describing facts (legal or otherwise) is a theory of anything. That in no way implies I or we know all the facts about law or anything else.
best
Rob
Thanks Rob. I am pleased about the point that it is a normative theory. This helps clarify such debates in future - they are ultimately about justice. People can reasonably disagree about this. I happen to think utilitarianism is the most compelling theory of justice and have not seen any rights scholars prove otherwise.
You write:
'MIsery is deeply unpleasant (an oxymoron I know) but it doesn't constrain you. You may choose not to do things you otherwise would as a result, but that is not the same thing.'
But if I said that we have a right not be caused distress and you said we do not how would we resolve such disputes under rights-theory? Saying they are not the same thing won't do - I could agree that they are not the same and still maintain that we such a right. I could also say that misery does constrain me. If I would have made a different choice were I not miserable then my choice is not completely free. The debate goes nowhere (As it happens, I don't think distress should not be recoverable in tort for utilitarian reasons but think rights-language hinders proper discussion of such issues).
I take your point about no fault. If we had a socialist system for redistributing wealth then there might not be as much, if any, need for tort law. And I wouldn't see such a world as less 'just' than the present. I would, however, see a theory of justice that was unconcerned with relieving misery as seriously defective.
I'm now going to have to crack on with other work but thanks for the debate - it has been a pleasure.
Best wishes,
Craig
Dr Craig Purshouse
Lecturer in Law
1.18 The Liberty Building
University of Leeds, LS2 9JT
T: (0113) 343 5050
Craig asks
Does this mean rights-based approaches are normative theories rather than explanatory ones?
As presently advised I think that there is the fact of the positive law, and the normative question of what justice requires. We cannot assume that what the positive law is is what it ought to be. We can describe the positive law facts more or less accurately, but that is not a theory of anything
(see Monty Python's Ms Anne Elk's Theory of the Brontosaurus mocking those who think that describing something is a theory of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zWjUhfj-M )
We could, like the early Legal Realists, think law is something like a science, and a "theory" is to predict how a judge will behave if presented with a particular fact pattern. The job of practitioners (and I am one sometimes) is often to do precisely that, and so that is not a completely daft way to think.
But I don't think theory of law is like science at all. Unlike gravity, law should be assessed by criteria of justice. So, a (true) legal theory may tell us that a court decision or a statute in a particular jurisdiction is right or wrong. That may make the theory more or less interesting, but not more or less true.
(ie all legal theory worthy of the name is inevitably normative).
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- Why does the law provide remedies for some moral wrongs but not others? I
I don't think the law should be in the business of providing remedies for moral wrongs qua moral wrongs at all.
Third, on what basis does distress/grief/pure economic loss not interfere with people's independence? They will be prevented from doing things as a result.
Misery is deeply unpleasant (an oxymoron I know) but it doesn't constrain you. You may choose not to do things you otherwise would as a result, but that is not the same thing.
. If a country had, for example, a no fault system for road traffic accidents then it would be hard to see what would be defective about that jurisdiction restricting negligence claims.
The problem I have with suggestions of this kind is that they make little sense in distributive justice terms. Why should being hit by a car be treated differently from being hit by a boat? If we expand the scheme to look like the NZ ACC, why stop there? Why are those who suffer physical injuries more deserving than those who suffer from a disease (A: they're not). If we expand the scheme again to cover disability through disease, why stop there? Why are these people more deserving than others who are in terrible need because of some other vicissitude of life? (A: again they're not).
If our goal were 'relieving misery' then the law of torts looks like a crazy and expensive way of trying to do so. Something like that thought led the late great Patrick Atiyah, who had the courage to take his premises seriously, to recommend abolishing the torts system and replacing it with nothing at all. I think something like that is where you end up as the various alternative distributional schemes we can dream up can't justify their boundaries.
My present view is that the law of torts is 'instrumental' only in the sense that it ensures that there is more justice in the world (it has some other incidental benefits but they're not really its point). So, it follows that I think that a jurisdiction that abolishes the law of torts, to a greater or lesser extent, is getting it wrong.
I'd be sad if that were out of date.
best
Rob
Thanks for this Rob. There is a lot I agree with in your response. Some remaining points/questions...
- I completely accept that we can say a particular decision is morally undesirable/wrong. Does this mean rights-based approaches are normative theories rather than explanatory ones?
- Why does the law provide remedies for some moral wrongs but not others? I don't think 'independence' provides a solution. First, it is vague. Second, I would question the idea that anyone is independent. Third, on what basis does distress/grief/pure economic loss not interfere with people's independence? They will be prevented from doing things as a result.
- Nationalism might be embarrassing but so is colonialism. Not every country needs the same laws. If a country had, for example, a no fault system for road traffic accidents then it would be hard to see what would be defective about that jurisdiction restricting negligence claims. The same goal of relieving misery can be achieved by different methods. Of course, we might say one achieves that goal better than another. But isn't that using instrumentalist reasoning? Are you now a convert to such an approach? And I doubt I am the only member on the list who is glad that the law develops to take account of modern conditions!
Best wishes,
Craig
Dr Craig Purshouse
Lecturer in Law
1.18 The Liberty Building
University of Leeds, LS2 9JT
T: (0113) 343 5050
Craig asks
"
Rob states: 'An alternative view is that what constitutes a wrong to another is not, at least in the central
case, determined by the positive law at all. There are wrongs that any legal system ought to recognise. Some wrongs (eg breach of copyright) may be matters of (policy?) choice, but things as fundamental as our bodies or ability to reason are not. On this view
an ultimate appellate court could get the rules wrong. The ability to sue is a jolly good thing, but not constitutive of what a wrong is.'
The first part of this statement it is either a statement of the obvious ('moral wrongs are not determined by the law') or false ('legal wrongs are not determined by the law'). Which is it?"
A colleague (on this list) tells a story of submitting an article critical of an ultimate appellate court to a journal in that jurisdiction, to have it promptly rejected by the journal's editor. His reason? That once that Court had spoken, that was the law and nothing more remained to be said, other than analysing what the court meant.
This is, in a sense, completely right. Unless the decision is given per incuriam, that is it as far as the positive law is concerned. We must defer to the judiciary in our own jurisdictions as to what the positive law is where we are. Their decisions are now the positive law, they cannot be 'wrong'.
But, the ought question, the question of justice, cannot be determined by the court at all. No deference to anyone, whether called Lord Justice, Professor or whatever, should be given to anyone on that question.
I took myself to be advocating that there is (are?) standards of justice by which we can assess judicial decisions in the law of torts, and say that one is wrong (or right).
An alternative view is that there are no such standards (save something like internal coherence). That the formula chosen by the UKSC in Rhodes is one of a large number that can be selected, all equally "correct". That that may be the view of the UKSC is, I think, reflected in the fact that they provide us with no criteria of justice, no theory if you like, why this is the correct formula. *Why* is there an intent requirement, for example?, for some formulas and not others?
"What criteria are we using for saying that one jurisdiction is
'getting the rules wrong' and another is not?"
This is a fair criticism, as I never spelled this out. I don't myself think that the law should be in the business of enforcing "moral wrongs" (not picking up babies drowning in puddles, insulting people so as to upset them, not calling your mum on her birthday: appalling ways to behave but not the law's concern). The (implicit) principle of justice I was relying upon may be characterised as one of independence. So, the (English?) distinction between distress and recognised psychiatric illness is justifiable on the basis that causing me distress does not constrain my independence, whereas damaging my ability to reason damages it in the most profound way. (A difficult line to draw I readily accept).
Similarly, the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 is fully justifiable by this criterion. A stalker outside my house everyday, or a "heavy breather" on the phone line every time I answer a call, will inhibit me. I will be constrained from behaving in a way that I would wish. That is why the "course of conduct" rule is there. The attitude of the common law, that I must toughen up, looks to me to be a hangover from a different (and mistaken) era.
[Some more heavy lifting needs to be done to justify an "abuse of rights/liberties" rule.]
As for " are we supposed to completely ignore all context when determining whether something is wrong?"
Well no, but nationalism in private law is always embarrassing. So, I am always a bit sceptical about claims that a common law rule needs to be changed because modern conditions are all very different from the past (eg Lord Sumption in Coventry v Lawrence) or because Australia is Very Big. Assertions of this kind, that the facts are different, seem to me to be often disguising implicit disagreements about justice (which of course I too may have been guilty of).. I don't know of any reason for thinking that the conditions in relation to misery are different in England and the USA, justifying different rules.
best
Rob
Rob states:
'An alternative view is that what constitutes a wrong to another is not, at least in the central case, determined by the positive law at all. There are wrongs that any legal
system ought to recognise. Some wrongs (eg breach of copyright) may be matters of (policy?) choice, but things as fundamental as our bodies or ability to reason are not. On this view an ultimate appellate court could get the rules wrong. The ability to sue
is a jolly good thing, but not constitutive of what a wrong is.'
The first part of this statement it is either a statement of the obvious ('moral wrongs are not determined by the law') or false ('legal wrongs are not determined by the law'). Which is it?
Leaving that aside, are we supposed to completely ignore all context when determining whether something is wrong? Might the facts on the ground in the particular jurisdiction help answer such questions? In England, protection from gaslighting would be provided by the Protection form Harassment Act 1997. As such, it might not be necessary to develop the rule in Wilkinson v Downton to cover such situations. This may not be the case in other jurisdictions without a similar statute. What criteria are we using for saying that one jurisdiction is 'getting the rules wrong' and another is not?
Best wishes,
Craig
Dr Craig Purshouse
Lecturer in Law
1.18 The Liberty Building
University of Leeds, LS2 9JT
T: (0113) 343 5050
Donal’s raising of the UK Supreme Court’s decision in Rhodes v OPO ( https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/32.html ) , and the resultant divergence of English and US law (indeed of English law and the law everywhere else as far as I know) raises the issue of which jurisdiction (if any) is getting this right? What should the law be?
I’ve been wondering whether to write something about Rhodes v OPO for a long while, so the indulgence and advice of colleagues would be helpful. I wrote this post this morning, but I have got carried away and it is rather long (sorry).
On the view that tort law is a set of formulas for obtaining judgment from a court for a remedy in your favour (the “civil recourse” view if you will) then different legal systems can construct different formulas in different ways and there is no correct view. It is like driving on one side of the road or the other, or being able to turn at a stop light. The rules could be more or less anything, so long as they make internal sense. One might be practically better than another, but that will be hard to show. The law is given determinatio through decisions of the courts (although that is always contingent on the ultimate appellate court not changing its mind. The point of law is then to draw lines where, absent the law, there are none
An alternative view is that what constitutes a wrong to another is not, at least in the central case, determined by the positive law at all. There are wrongs that any legal system ought to recognise. Some wrongs (eg breach of copyright) may be matters of (policy?) choice, but things as fundamental as our bodies or ability to reason are not. On this view an ultimate appellate court could get the rules wrong. The ability to sue is a jolly good thing, but not constitutive of what a wrong is.
James Rhodes is a famous world class concert pianist (here he is playing Beethoven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFj0jXMAQzU ). He wrote a memoir detailing the physical and sexual abuse he suffered as a child, and his mental health problems, and difficulties with alcohol and drugs.
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The monumental finale to Beethoven's Waldstein sonata - composed just after taking delivery of a shiny new, improved piano. Like a kid at Christmas he went t...
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His ex-wife, the mother of his 11 year old child, sought an injunction restraining publication. She did so on the basis that their son suffered from Asperger’s syndrome (and other mental health problems) and would suffer emotional distress and psychological harm if he were exposed to the material in the book. (The son resides in the USA where there were no plans to publish the book.)
The result was that no injunction was awarded. That seems to me to be obviously correct, but for a reason not mentioned by our Supreme Court. Assuming that publishing this book if it foreseeably caused the child a recognised psychiatric illness would constitute a tort, should an injunction be awarded to prevent publication? The answer is, I think, no. The threat of the wrong is insufficiently imminent. Just as you cannot get an injunction against careless drivers in your neighbourhood who might run you over, the mother should not have been able to obtain an injunction to prevent a wrong that was somewhat speculative. Maybe the child would google his father’s name, find out about the book and might suffer resultant psychiatric harm, but at the time of trial that still looks unlikely. To award an injunction would curtail James Rhodes’ freedom in a way that seems heavy handed when we don’t yet know whether his conduct will cause anyone any harm. It is at this, remedial stage, that Rhodes’ interest in his ‘freedom of speech’ should have been considered.
The Supreme Court did not see this case as about whether an injunction should be awarded, but instead as one about the anterior question of the elements of the “liability under Wilkinson v Downton” (torts named after cases is a hallmark of the formulary view). The majority (Lady Hale, Lords Toulson, Clarke and Wilson) set out the elements of the ‘tort’ as Donal describes
1. Conduct directed towards the claimant for which there is no reasonable excuse
It was upon the lack of this element of the claim that the defendant won, and would win if they suffered damage
2. Recognised psychiatric illness
3. Intention to cause physical harm or severe mental or emotional distress
Again, the claim would fail on the basis that this element was not satisfied.
One of the difficulties with the formulary view is working out what the relation is between the formulas. So, if his son did suffer a recognised psychiatric illness could he claim damages by relying upon another one, the “tort of negligence”? On its face he could as the elements of that formula are satisfied, but do the ‘policy’ arguments in favour of freedom of speech that led to limits being placed on the Wilkinson v Downton claim in Rhodes not equally apply, indicating that the claim should fail?
My view is that if the boy does suffer a recognised psychiatric illness he should recover, and that the UKSC are confusing the possible bases for a claim where someone suffers distress or psychiatric illness.
First I consider that English law is correct to draw the distinction between distress (however severe) and psychiatric illness that it does, and US law wrong to fail to do so. Making me unhappy doesn’t impair my ability to lead my life. Damaging my ability to reason does, indeed it is probably the most profound and fundamental wrong other than killing me that there is. So, I should and do have a right to my mental health, but not to any level of happiness.
Once that is accepted, this right should operate in the same way as my right to my body. If you foreseeably negligently injure me I should have a claim. It should not avail James Rhodes to invoke freedom of speech to avoid a claim for damages if his son is so injured.
But, take another example given by the Supreme Court
Here there should be no claim. The defendant could not reasonably have foreseen the psychiatric illness. That he intended something else that was harmful (misery) should be irrelevant (contra the UKSC even where serious). The infliction of misery in the ordinary run of human life should not be actionable (teachers of law are employed to deliberately inflict misery on the young).
Second, US law may be correct in making the intentional infliction of emotional distress actionable (in some circumstances) but not because we have a ‘right’ to happiness. Just as we don’t have some kind of general right not to suffer economic loss (if that were even conceivable) we don’t have a general right not to be made unhappy. But someone who deliberately causes us economic loss or emotional distress might be held liable not because they are committing a wrong (or tort) but because they are not. Civilian jurisdictions are familiar with the idea of “abuse of rights”: deliberately exercising a liberty you have in order to cause another loss (really a doctrine of abuse of liberties). This ground of liability requires intent, its rationale is the deliberate abuse of a liberty with the goal of causing another harm. Just as intentionally causing economic loss may (in some cases) be justifiable on this basis, despite the absence of any right infringed, so may be the intentional infliction of distress.
The problem with an “abuse of rights” doctrine is that it seems to broad, and catches behaviour that is either justifiable, or arguably so. In the context of economic loss it would on its face stifle trade union activity, in the area of emotional distress the problem of a general doctrine is set out by Lord Hoffmann in Wainwright v HO
“In institutions and workplaces all over the country, people constantly do and say things with the intention of causing distress and humiliation to others. This shows lack of consideration and appalling manners but I am not sure that the right way to deal with it is always by litigation.”
So, in its usual cautious piecemeal fashion, the common law has pockets of “abuse of rights” doctrine where difficult policy based line drawing questions don’t really arise (eg where causing the economic loss is independently unlawful). So, the American Restatement says
“One who by extreme and outrageous conduct intentionally or recklessly causes severe emotional distress to another is subject to liability for such emotional distress”
And Canadian law has a similar rule where the conduct is “extreme flagrant or outrageous”. This seems to me justifiable in clear cut cases.
So, the modern term ‘gaslighting” is drawn from a 1938 English play “Gaslight”. Another Anglo-American comparison is that this was made into two movies, one English from 1940 starring Anton Walbrook and the stage actress Diana Wynyard, and an American remake in 1944 with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman. The former is brilliant (and can be watched on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYmtzaHwCKo ) the latter not so much. The ending is particularly good. I remember my mother punching the air with glee when we watched it together. (Spoiler alert). The villain tries (and fails) to drive his wife mad, but does deliberately cause her great distress. I think that ought to be actionable in England, and everywhere else.
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Gaslight is a 1940 British film directed by Thorold Dickinson which stars Anton Walbrook and Diana Wynyard, and features Frank Pettingell. The film adheres more ...
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Rob
The tort of intentional infliction of emotional or physical harm in modern English law – based on Wilkinson v Downton – is not at all the same as the American tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. It is not limited to psychiatric injury but extends to physical harm. You cannot recover for emotional distress (no matter how severe), but only for a recognised psychiatric illness. Recklessness will not suffice for the mental element: there must be the relevant intention (although, as the judge held, the intention to cause severe distress will suffice). And there is no requirement of ‘extreme and outrageous’ conduct.
It’s also worth noting that the judge here was simply following (as he was obliged to!) the decision of the UKSC in O (A child) v Rhodes [2016] AC 219.
all best
Donal
From: Wright, Richard [mailto:rwright@kentlaw.iit.edu]
Sent: 05 December 2018 22:17
To: Jason Neyers
Cc: obligations@uwo.ca
Subject: Re: ODG: Brayshaw v the Partners of Apsley Surgery and Thomas O'Brien
I submit that the court misunderstood the requirements for an IIED claim. There need not be an intent to cause or reckless disregard of causing severe emotional distress (these criteria would not have been satisfied in Wilkinson), but rather only an intent or reckless disregard of causing significant emotional distress, which ends up in causing severe emotional distress through outrageous conduct.
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:08 PM Jason W Neyers <jneyers@uwo.ca> wrote:
I post on behalf of Mark Wilde:
Dear all
A very interesting QBD decision with some bizarre facts but which raises a number of textbook tort issues: Brayshaw v the Partners of Apsley Surgery and Thomas O'Brien.
The claimant, Mrs Brayshaw, sought a consultation with the defendant GP who was a locum at the local medical practice. She presented with a number of mental health and physical symptoms but it seems she was primarily concerned about her mental well being on this particular occasion. She initially had a telephone conversation with the doctor who was a Pentecostal Christian. When issues of faith came out in the conversation the doctor suggested a 'different way' to 'heal' her and arranged to see her at her home. There then followed s series of consultations purporting to offer 'spiritual guidance' and healing.
During the course of this 'healing' process (which involved private consultations and participation in religious services at a church) it was suggested that the claimant was possessed by demons which were commanded to come out of her body. At one event she attended a preacher spoke about sacrificing an owl, although not in relation to the claimant's treatment. This left her with a fear of owls. (not surprisingly this 'owl phobia' is the feature that attracted the attention of the BBC in its Coverage of the case).
As a result of her experiences the claimant suffered psychiatric harm for which she sought damages against the doctor (O'Brien) and the medical practice under vicarious liability.
Mr Justice Spencer delivered a judgment which raises a number of interesting points of law.
In a rare outing for Wilkinson v Downton [1897] 2 QB 57 he held that the principle could not apply here because there was no intent on the doctor's part to cause severe distress or illness; moreover recklessness would not suffice in this respect.
As regards a claim under the Harassment Act 1997 the judge was of the opinion that there was no 'course of conduct' of the type envisaged by the legislation.
However the claim for psychiatric injury under negligence succeed on the grounds that the doctor had allowed his professional judgement to collide with his spiritual beliefs in a manner which was to the detriment of the patient: 'By reason of his zealous promotion of the religious aspects, he became blind to the medical aspects and thereby caused or contributed to the deterioration in the Claimant’s mental health.' [66].
The claim in vicarious liability against the medical practice failed on the grounds that as a locum he could not be regarded as an employee of the practice. And secondly, that in offering spiritual counselling of this nature he had stepped outside the scope of his employment. Applying Lister v Hesley Hall the judge held:-
'I cannot see that religious proselytization can fairly be regarded as a reasonably incidental risk to the business of carrying on a doctors’ surgery. I am fortified in this view by the fact that, as I have found, the Claimant herself knew that Dr O’Brien was not acting in his capacity as a GP but as a friend and Christian: she said so herself in her letter written soon after they met.'
Regards
Mark
Dr. Mark Wilde
Associate Professor in Law
School of Law
University of Reading
Foxhill House, Room G53
Whiteknights Road, Earley
Reading RG6 7BA
United Kingdom
Phone: +44 (0) 118 378-5674
Fax: +44 (0) 118 378-4543
Email: m.l.wilde@reading.ac.uk
Web: www.reading.ac.uk/law
Railways and Law blog: http://blogs.reading.ac.uk/railways-and-law/
Jason Neyers
Professor of Law
Faculty of Law
Western University
Law Building Rm 26
e. jneyers@uwo.ca
t. 519.661.2111 (x88435)